Shamelessly Embracing Shame with Living Brave Founder Shoshanna Raven

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Take a moment and think of the thing you are most ashamed of. What does it feel like in your body when you think of that thing? Are your cheeks flushing, does your stomach hurt? Now imagine if that shame was out in the open. If it was something you embraced rather than recoiled from? Meet Shoshanna Raven, she’s a leadership and business coach but really she should be called a shame whisperer. She’s passionate about women living their life from a place of truth and living authentically. What started out as a podcast speaking freely about her shame evolved into a multi-million dollar business filled with retreats, masterminds and coaching. 

What you’ll learn:

  • Shoshanna shares how she went from a freelancer to a multi-millionaire in just a few years 
  • Shoshanna discusses how her shame initially impacted her and her decision to be open about her Herpes diagnoses 
  • Shoshanna talks about feminine lead energy and growth and how you can implement into your business and life 

To learn more about Shoshanna Raven, visit her website Shoshanna Raven and follow her on instagram at @shoshanna_raven

Check our past episodes of The Sixth Degree podcast! Remember to follow us on InstagramFacebook, and Twitter.

Emily Merrell  0:04  

Welcome to the sixth degree Podcast, the podcast where we grill our guests about the things that make them tick and find out how human connection plays a role in their life. I’m your host, Emily Merrill. I’m your host, Emily Merrell. And today I’m so excited to have my friend Shana Raven. She’s a woman’s life, business and leadership coach, and the founder of living brave, Shana, welcome to the podcast.


Shoshanna Raven  0:35  

Oh, my goodness. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. You’re giving me a life and energy. Wednesday afternoon.


Emily Merrell  0:46  

Only Wednesday. I feel like during the holidays, it gets so nebulous. I’m like I Saturday, Sunday. I’m unsure. Yeah,


Shoshanna Raven  0:56  

it’s definitely Wednesday. But it’s also as short this week because everyone’s getting ready for the holidays. Yeah, emails.


Emily Merrell  1:04  

Emails are becoming spare, inspire fewer and fewer, which is really, really beautiful. A more empty inbox of sorts. It’s my biggest. My biggest challenge in life is inbox traffic control. But shows I write I love. I love the fact that I had the chance to be on your podcast a few weeks ago. And now to have you, fellow podcaster and host to be in the hot seat to have the questions asked a view. So before we dive in, you formally introduced who is the Shoshana? I’m going to put that in front of you, that you do you wear so many hats. So I’d love an intro from you.


Shoshanna Raven  1:46  

Oh, my God was epic. So you know, I love we’re talking about names and my name is Shawna Raven, and how that’s not the name on my birth certificate. Believe it or not, I wasn’t shot. Yeah. And no, I was named Shoshana. Believe it or not. Um, you know, Kayla and Nicole are my sisters. And they just got wild, the middle child because you know, the middle child is already gonna come out wild. But really, when I launched my podcast, living brave, this was like October 2019. I had an that feels like 50 years ago, I’m not even gonna lie. I truly believe that people always talk about quantum leaps. And there’s a quantum leap that exists within yourself of like, who you become. And I just feel like a totally different person. Like, you know, when you dive into the world of personal development, and you run a business for the first time, and you’re growing a team, and you’re working with 1000s of people, and I’m like, I’ve actually lived lifetimes, like you can collapse time and the best kind of time collapse. People often talk about it with money. And it’s totally available to have a quantum leap in your business with your revenue, but, like, quantum healing, quantum expansion, like it’s, it’s really cool. So that moment for me, I was like, taking Shauna and putting Raven next to it. You know, it was like, I didn’t even really think about it that much. I was just, I’m just gonna launch a podcast, that to do with shame, slang, and breaking stigma and telling the truth and talking about taboos because I have a story to share. You know, I quit the corporate world in 2015, I was totally shell of myself addicted to Adderall working 60 plus hours a week tied to a cubicle, I was like, no things. If I’ve got to be poor than I’d rather be like, have my freedom. And I started freelance writing and I was doing like, I was living a double life. I was like writing for some blogs and I was doing finance writing. And then I was dog walking, yoga, teaching side hustling, beer attending, and I then had an experience in my life after like traveling a lot solo and building up this confidence where my whole world was shattered with an HSV diagnosis. And I had a whole lot of shame. I had to overcome a whole lot of stigma when it came to STI is gentle her herpes, you know, I will say how it is. It’s a huge stigma and I literally felt like my life is over. And it it shed light on all of these old stories of like, about I wasn’t enough like all these unconscious fears and oh my gosh, so for me my reclamation journey of like owning my deepest shadows, and my deepest secrets was like I could not go on without sharing that so I had no intention of monetizing anything. I was just like, I’m gonna pop if I don’t have a creative outlet. And so living brave was my podcast where I put Raven I was just like, I don’t know when I want people to like search me. I want this to be my art like when they search for Shana Raven, I want them to see like the legend. You know, like the human goes alongside the legend. I want them to see my art and this is like so that was kind of the founding. I didn’t even know what I was doing but of the personal brand, just trying to Raven with the living brave movement and mission and that’s really how the podcast started. I had recorded the whole thing and got me I literally my eyes were like bleeding. You know, I was like learning how to do GarageBand and I was recording all the first episodes. And right before I was about to launch everything, and I had been sitting on the stream and started limbo for like a year or two. I am the night the day before I go to make space on my computer. I’m so technologically not savvy. So I called Apple to help me make space on the computer. And I’m like, Oh, my God, you’re an angel. I go downstairs, they do an operating system update. So I go downstairs to make some oatmeal and I walked back upstairs. My computer had crashed.


Emily Merrell  5:39  

So everything recorded was gone.


Shoshanna Raven  5:41  

Yes. And I like was cry. I was literally like, I was on the phone with Apple. As I’m driving to Apple in hysterics, they get there, like there’s a four hour wait. So I’m in the bad cry. They’re like, we gotta get this girl out of the store, who they like take me to the front. They can’t, like they can’t recover anything, actually. And so I lost it all I had to redo the whole thing. And I’m honestly so grateful for that, because I just checked myself and I was like, You know what, you’re not going to publish your first draft you, you can go bigger, you can do better. And I signed up actually, for a women’s podcasting like recording studio. No, it was a podcast recording studio. But the day I signed up, they had a women podcasting night, which was really freaking cool. It was like so aligned. But even investing in that at the time, which was like $100 a month, like, I didn’t think I was gonna make money with my podcast, I didn’t think I was gonna have a business, it was just a huge moment for me and being like, you know, I get to invest in my dream, like, and my creativity and my, and my passion project. Like, let’s, let’s go bigger, like, let’s elevate this. And so that’s kind of where, yeah, this all began and so long. So what I do is like, really my work is under the umbrella of I love being a creative, I love being entrepreneur. And my work is really based on like breaking shame and radical self expression, unapologetic self expression. And what’s on the other side of that is like true authentic connection, vulnerable, real leadership, disruptive leadership, and like limitless potential. On the other side of all the baggage, all the fears, there’s bravery, you know, walking with your fear making that a way of life. And so through that I’ve, you know, I had all sorts of things, my podcasts, I do retreats, but mostly I’m focused on my coaching, and my mentoring. So I have all different kinds of programs. I have a year long experience where you go through all the programs, I have a mastermind where I work with people super high level, I do private coaching, and I really just love to create transformational experiences that people can invest in themselves through. I’m in all different areas. And it’s been so much fun. So that life leadership, love business, mentoring, and I love working with other creatives, female heart led entrepreneurs, I’ve grown my business organically. So I work with a lot of people who use storytelling, I look at feminine strategy, how we can actually innovate the way that we’re marketing, selling and operating our businesses and creating beautiful cultures and places to work and an amazing client experiences. So it’s fun for me to work with other personal brands, but also just working with, you know, the whole human and, and helping people really access their potential.


Emily Merrell  8:25  

Oh my gosh, I love I don’t think I understood or realized that your podcast was an just started in 2019, which, while it was 1000 years ago, it was also three years ago, four years ago, and you’ve accomplished so much it was it was basically like your gateway drug into the CO teen world and into so much more potential of what you’ve created. So when you created this podcast, you finally figured out how to do it, you joined this woman’s podcasting night, you pressed play, or you played press launch and publish. And then what happened? Did people just find you organically? Or was it something that like you sent a LinkedIn post? You said, Hey, guys, HSP like, check it out.


Shoshanna Raven  9:13  

That’s so funny that you say that in for context. It’s like, Yeah, I mean, it’s so funny because everything’s relative, right? So it’s like, my mentor, I’m like, Oh my God, this opens like there’s 1000s of people in the programs and it’s a $60 million business but she’s looking at like Tony Robbins like oh my god, you know, there’s 1000s of people so you know, it’s all relative, but sometimes I’ll say like, you know, the growth hack growing the community organically it’s not huge you know, it was my partner will sometimes look at me he’s been in the online marketing space like he’s like, can I screenshot your how many signups? You have? He’s like, this doesn’t even make sense. Like, I have like, you know, we we just broke 10,000 followers on Instagram, but like we have this like, multimillion dollar business, you know, like it’s huge. We just had like, our biggest master class we had 100 signups All organically. He’s like, can I screenshot this like, you’re like, it’s really built off like heart and soul. And so while some people could look at all those numbers and those amount of people and what I’ve built, I was like really big, it’s still like not that far off from, you know where I was or where some people are like I, I started and I had maybe like, less than 2000 followers on Instagram, all friends and family. Like all friends and family, I was just I had traveled, I’ve met people traveling and podcast, why I think everything has gone so well. And of course, I’ve gone through my own quantum crumbles, and I’ve gotten so hot to coaching and mentoring. And I’ve learned so much like, I have invested so much in myself not just in money, but time and energy, like I’ve made my whole, not like my life is my business. But my values. My the way, the context of living brave has really helped me through huge transitions in my life over the past few years. So it’s like investment, you know. But that said, Why did I think kick off right away. And I didn’t start coaching for like six months after I launched my podcast. But why everything moves so well is I don’t, I wasn’t trying to position myself. It was like, truly like, this is my truth. And I’m so passionate about this. Like, if this could help one person, it’s worth it. Like, that’s where it was coming from. And so think like the truth in a world where people are kind of lying a little bit to look a little bit different, and you just are like in your raw truth. Like you’re telling that your truth, the truth, it’s so magnetic, and also like life changing for


Emily Merrell  11:43  

people. And I love how you said that you were telling your truth, you weren’t trying to monetize this, this wasn’t a gimmick, to get people to invest in you or to hire you. And coming from that heart center and being so authentic with your message. I think it’s a really good teachable moment for so many business owners out there who operate from a place of money first, versus like mission or passion first, first. Absolutely. And like,


Shoshanna Raven  12:13  

it’s really interesting in all industries, people like to say things about the coaching industry, but a lot of things coaching industry are just like a human thing, and not the coaching industry, you know, where it’s really cool, like it is really cool to reach financial freedom, it is really freaking cool to make a lot of money in your business. And it’s just when the pursuit of more is coming from a place of freedom and joy within yourself. Like, if you’re more like this pursuit of more is our genuine desire that always comes from a space of wholeness and my life. I had struggled so much with men and with money and with all these things, because I was coming from a space of I’m not enough. And I’m coming from a space of a reality distortion field, like not in the good way that Steve Jobs talks about, but in the way like, I’m in I’m not like I was thriving, but I didn’t feel like I was thriving. And like that kind of I need to be fixed like I could, like just because there’s more doesn’t mean there’s lack now it just means there’s always more. And if you’re following like, what else can we create? What else can we build? Like? How good could this get from a space of like, and even if I’m 5% of who I’m becoming that doesn’t mean I’m not enough now it means like, I’m just on a path of like figuring out how great this could get, you know, and I think like, that whole reclamation of shame was that journey of of like, I’m enough like, this is like, I’m enough and what could freakin be possible. And every step of the way. I’ve been so mind blown. Does that mean I haven’t been tapped into the matrix of like, Oh, my God, what if like, this isn’t what I thought and like, I didn’t have a launch fear, whatever it is no. But like, I think what happens is that people forget that the more that they set out for the more impact, like the life force of the universe is desire, like where we would just stay where we are, and just be grateful. But there’s always like that calling towards something else. And that’s always coming from like your values, right, like more impact, more connection, more depth, more freedom, more joy. And more money gets to be a part of that, like money gets to be a beautiful part of your life, giving money and receiving money, it gets to just be a really wonderful thing. And I think that like people like to say either you pursue money or like, No, it’s not about the pursuit of money, but it’s just there’s nothing wrong with the pursuit of money. It’s just so many people are stuck in a matrix where they have own looked at more like just because there’s more money to be made just because there’s more fame to be had. Just because I could always be working. That means I can’t rest that means I lose myself in my growth. And it’s like that and you forget that you’re thriving, like people were thriving like those moments where like, you realize and the truth feels so good in your body because it’s true when you realize you’re thriving. You’re like oh my God, like I’m listening this podcast like, I live here, like, I’ve always wanted this, this is the person that’s next to me like you like, you’re like, I have this freaking baby like, I have, like, I have amazing friends like, life is always gonna be life like I’m thriving, you know. And when you move from that space, the results are also bigger because people feel that, but often people start to spiral because it’s like, we’re only looking at more money. And then you’re taking actions that aren’t really aligned and aren’t really moving from the truth within yourself. So the results gonna don’t really match that, and then you get even more afraid, and you grasp onto the money even more. And it’s like, that’s never a point. And so what I really love to help people is like, connect to what their true definition of wealth is, and then also connect to a long term vision for themselves. Because having those like, moments where you’re like, oh, okay, I lost myself and then growth, I may come back home to myself where like, I’m allowed to have a lower month, like, I’ve had huge bumps, and then cut it in half, you know, like, my growth is not looked linear. And because I’m like, I want to be doing this for many decades. You know, I don’t, this isn’t just about, like, well, limited isn’t about this month, or this year, you know, and I think like to really look at, like I say, growth as a whole person, but like, if your pursue is to create things and attain success and let it be holistic,


Emily Merrell  16:21  

hmm, I think that’s a wonderful reminder for everyone out there that’s looking at those months and looking at those numbers and feeling like, Oh, I’m a failure, I suck. And I love that, looking ahead at like your worldview, or we’re looking at your life view. And truly shows, I think that’s one of the hardest things to do is, we look so much like a year in advance of, oh, I want a house or I want a baby or I want to be married. But like, how do you find what you want to do in your life? Like, how can you do you have any tips on people shifting, like what their life map would look like?


Shoshanna Raven  16:59  

Yeah, well, the first thing that you said made me think of something that’s been so helpful for me and like, okay, I get that. But it’s hard because like, I want it and like we want to know what happens next. But that control, like when people talk about feminine energy, which I think is very much misunderstood. It’s not to get something you know, it’s like not like so that you could attract the man. It’s like, a self respecting lifestyle choice, where you learn to stop controlling everything, and how good it feels to actually be in the passenger seat, have nowhere that you’re going know that there’s a faster way home and say nothing, not because you’re not powerful. It’s just like, Oh, God, it feels so good to like not need to be like controlling and leading everything all the time and just let like surrender to life a little bit. You know, like, that’s the most joyful thing. And I think like learning about tapping back into my feminine leadership and energetics is like, no, shifting my relationship with what we were just talking about is our like, is and the unknown is the void because like when you’re tapped into your lifeforce, like, you love the uncertainty, like we literally watch movies, because we don’t know what’s gonna happen next. And if they told you in the beginning, you wouldn’t watch the movie. Like, if we we have consciousness and unconscious desires and the truth is on an unconscious level, we I know I do, or else I wouldn’t be an entrepreneur. I love uncertainty. Like when I am like trusting my intuition, I feel like I’m walking into the void into the darkness. But I have the light at the end of the tunnel, which is my intuition. My intuition is lighting it up. Like that’s what I want and so I think it’s understanding that it’s actually a really beautiful way to live is of course we do the things we do the things that work that we know work and the more you believe it’s gonna work the more it works because your whole energy shifts, but that I don’t want to actually know like, what’s going to happen next all the time and that’s like a feminine an aspect of your feminine however you want to look at it where we always want more right like we’re always like the anatomy of it is like the your masculine practices it’s like we want to empty and we want to focus and that’s like your meditation practice but your feminine is like I want to be filled by life like your sensuality or expression like I always want more not on the frequency of lack but like there’s always more available to me and so part of that is like the juiciness of forgetting far out there like the juiciness of how good it feels to want like that sexuality to me as well like to play with I know I don’t need it but I can play in the theatrics of like, I need you because I know I don’t you know but like instead of like to want to like to be like oh my god I’m turned on by like what’s available to me in life. It doesn’t mean I’m not enough like I love the longing. I love the not know I’m turned on my own longing, my own wanting. And like, that’s a good feeling and that I’ve healed so much like anxious attachment of realizing like, I am obviously addicted to this experience of like, you know, have like this anxiety and why don’t I just turn this into like, it feels so good to flirt, it feels so good to not know. And the truth is, I know for sure. And this is like when I was single, I know for sure that someday, who knows when I’m going to be waking up every day, next to this person who is my partner, and I’m going to be in love. And so, like, I’m going to enjoy the process of not knowing when that’s gonna happen, who’s gonna like, This is so fun, even in my relationship. Now, there’s always a part of my brain. Like, I wouldn’t be with this person if I didn’t want to be with them long term, but it’s like, I yeah, I want to be I’m, of course, I want to get engaged and be married and have babies and all the things but the truth is that like, it would totally reduce our intimacy and our polarity and like, the, the attraction, all of the beauty of the moment, right now, if I knew exactly what it was gonna happen, I was gonna happen, how it’s gonna play out, it’s like, I don’t actually want that part of the life force, like the the energy in my life is from on purpose, walking into not knowing. So we have to stop wanting to be surprised by life, and then also needing to control everything, because we’re going to have really limited results that way. And there’s one way to grow a business and a life that’s very predictable. But it’s also the flip side, because there’s a flip side to everything is that it’s boring. And so people are bored with it, and it’s predictable. And it’s like, okay, well, you want to step into the realm of like, anything is possible, you’ve got to walk into the thing you’ve never done and that you don’t know what’s gonna happen and like anything could happen. Well, that’s really scary. Well, that’s the trade off, like, you know, like,


Emily Merrell  21:53  

I think you have a really good point, too, about how the feminine is in terms like letting go of the control. But yet at the same time, like what you hear about running a business is that everything has to be systematized and organized and processed. And that’s pretty masculine in terms of tongs. So as a business coach and a leadership coach, like what do you handle life coach? What do you think in terms of someone who is like, Oh, yes, sure. I am fucking out of control right now. I feel out of control. I don’t even know where to start to find control. But I want to also, like live that feminine lifestyle. How do you how do you balance both of them? Yeah,


Shoshanna Raven  22:31  

well, what I love is like, I think people misunderstand, like, you know, quote, being in your feminine as like, I need more structure, I need something outside of me, that’s disempowered energy that’s not empowered, feminine energy. That’s like, actually, for me a sign. Like the masculine is like hyper controlling, but your feminine like, feels like there’s some systems some person somebody who’s gonna come along and be your knight in shining armor. Yeah. Like actually to be embodied in your feminine energy. You wouldn’t ever say something like, I’m too feminine. That doesn’t make sense. You know, that’s just like, you’re 100% Both things and you just choose what energies to turn on. You would never say I’m too masculine, that’s ego. You’re judging yourself. Like, you know, you would just like when you are tapped into your creativity, to like, to your intuition to your your lifeforce. Like the feminine doesn’t just lean back and do nothing. This is your ability to have an idea and then act on it, you know, and like, lean into life. And that energy, in essence, like, then the structure comes quite naturally. So even when you asked me before about, how do you kind of like figure out what you want and things like that, it was like, it only comes through actions, I’m all about taking action, I’m all about CO creating, you know, life with other people with the universe, whatever you like to say it is it’s like, get in the game, like show that your game. And one of my mentors says like, either it comes to me easier, I’ll have to prove it either way, I’m in no money and layer and I love that she says that because it’s like, yeah, either it’ll come to me naturally, or I’ll have to prove it. But either way, I’m game and I’m gonna show that like, life that I’m game and I’m both feet in. And so I would say that this, like, I need more structure, I feel all over the place like part of the all over the place is like learning how to like, actually embodied your your emotions and your energy and yourself. Versus you need some kind of someone to tell you five steps. It’s like, no, you’ve just got to learn how to trust yourself and learn that your emotions aren’t bad, and that all artists have 100 ideas every day. You’re not special there. And like there’s nothing wrong with having a lot of ideas. There’s nothing wrong with not knowing exactly how, you know, because you’re never gonna know how until you do it. And then a lot of the times you’re gonna be like, Man, I don’t really know how I did that. To be honest. It just happened. So it’s like I was going I was like, go I went snowboarding quick story. I went snowboard. Reading and I know how to ski and snowboarding with my partner and we’re in South America this summer. And I tell you, it’s so hard. Like, I tried to use it on anyone. It was horrible. Oh my god. And at one point, like, I felt like when I was on my knees like my heartbreak and like, I lost journeys, like, I felt like that being the beginner snowboarder, and I said to Christian like, and he wanted his businesses, he teaches people how to snowboard. That’s right. So I’m looking at him. And I’m, like, defeated. And I’ve got my board in my hand. And like, I just feel like I’m like not getting something like, there’s just like something that is missing. And he’s like, What would you tell a client right now? And I’m like, Are you right? Isn’t it that you don’t know how, or you just need to get on the board, so I can actually coach you. I’m like, Oh, my God, I’m not missing anything. I just need to fucking go for it. So if I am doing something wrong, you can tell me but like, I’m never gonna learn by talking about snowboarding. You know, like,


Emily Merrell  26:10  

that’s just impossible.


Shoshanna Raven  26:13  

I’ve got it. I’ve got like, I’m not I’m just bad. Right now, I’ve just got to get better. I’ve just got to work on my skills, I’ve just got to get in the game, I’m just going to get some tips as I go. But I could try to get all the tips. Now, I’m going to forget half of them, because I’m gonna get on the board. And so I would say like, you know, and I have all the courses and all the things where like, everything from mindset to building offers to knowing how to market understanding social media, to how to set up sales, and really Heartland way to getting visible on social media. But all of that is like, for me, there was an elevated way of teaching, and I love teaching feminine strategy and authentic business and business strategy. And I think if you’re going to be an entrepreneur and a business person, please get yourself business like tools, they’re lifelong tools. And I don’t care if it doesn’t work in four weeks, you shouldn’t be operating a business, if you don’t know how to run a business, if you literally have never been taught sales, and you’re going to be the salesperson, get taught sales from someone who you like how they run their sales. So all that’s really important. But after that, it’s like, it’s often along my journey, I’ve even fall into the trap, because they tell you to market to things outside of people. You know, they’re like that they’re actually that’s mainstream advice. It’s like 1% of people are really ambitious, and they’ll buy into an improvement offer, but most people aren’t. So you have to sell them something outside of themselves. And there’s another subset of people that will buy a new way. And I think a lot of my stuff is a new way and that attracts people. But like, I also speak to the 1% of people were like, I don’t have to find a problem to get fixed. I don’t have to fix myself find something outside of myself, like I can do it. And I want to do it was support, I want to get the tools like I want to, you know work on like my actual, like, you could go get your hair done new outfit, but if you’re not working on your elating skills, and you’re not working on how you feel in your body, what the heck are we doing? Nothing’s gonna change with your dating life, you know? So that’s kind of where I focus and where I feel. It’s like, no, not some people don’t really want to look at that. Like, but it must be, what’s the backend system you use? I’m like, I was using Google dogs until my business, you know,


Emily Merrell  28:32  

well, I can get right. Like, I think that’s a great behind the scenes pulling the curtain out, like you can be a very successful business owner, and you still are figuring it out as you go. And you are offering something that is so transformational, but like, you still have to invest in a coach or mentor or a systems person that helps you up level your things. And if you had all the answers right now, I tell me one company that you’ve ever experienced, that’s like, perfect as is that shouldn’t change.


Shoshanna Raven  29:01  

Yeah, and like, you know, it’s okay. Sometimes when people are like, I’m good. I just want to stay here. But for people like growth, you know, like, a context of like growth and constant growth. Like, I want to bring more of myself to the table, I want to make this better, I want to make this more full. Like, then I’m always going to be learning I’m always going to be growing, I’m always going to be coming up against adversity. And that’s I always celebrate that because that means I’m moving people and that means I get to grow. I don’t know any movie I’ve watched where there wasn’t a challenge that was like an integral part of the story. And so, you know, it’s more like, I don’t need to like I’ve had people say, you know, I’ve made a huge investment. And the mastermind people are like, well, you know, you clearly know how to run a business, but it’s like that’s missing the point. Like of course, I know how to run a business. This at this point, it’s like could this help me elevate and expand my skills? and expand my embodiment and you know, expand my network and be like an insurance policy on my big dream, do I need it? Absolutely not. And when I invest out of need, that’s why people sometimes don’t get the results. It’s like they’re handing you their power. And it’s like, you’re never going to be able to do that for them. And so I think there’s like some points where it’s like, you do need a lot of hand holding, and there’s a lot of great like, step by steps. And then from there, it’s like, how can I really trust my own way and my own voice, like, so much of my coaching and the best coaching I’ve ever gotten is like, the people who helped me actually ask better questions and not ask so many questions, because I’m like, why am I asking this? I feel like, I, I’m the artist, you know, like, I know what to name it. I know what to price like, you know, like, this way, I trust that I know that. And that’s been like trusting my own artistry. And actually being brave enough to be innovative, has been really awesome.

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